Career Suggestions in Marketing & beyond

[pinzzz]

Hi,

This is like those times when you feel more the heads better the
perspective. Evading my way of going around in circles in explaining
things on a public forum (partly because of my bit intorvert nature) I
will just get down to basic fact. I am looking for directions from
experienced Marketing professionals.

Let me introduce myself, to make it easier. I myself am an Indian by
nationality and global in perspective. I have had a business mindset
right from my childhood. I can document decently and am motivated by
myself. What intruges and inspters me are globally diverse cultures
and the communication stream. Communication hence is my subject of
interest and Marketing Communication is my profession.

I have completed my PG in communication management and presntly have
been plying my trade in the Indian Media sector. But I am not to be
bound in the same. Although I depend on numbers for my livelihood I
believe it's people from whom we media professionals derive numbers.
Understanding them is as inmportant as their responses. I want to
develop an all round business overview and not just a specific
function like Marketing. This I guess is essential and unavoidable to
advance a career.

Now, I am a bit confused. I have complete over a year and am looking
out for a change. This was prompted by the fact when I proposed a plan
or two to my boss. Brilliant idea he said, 'but have you an idea of
costs to be incurred?' I was for once at a loss for words. Then I
understood the necessity to understand 'money matters' - Finance, to
be exact.

I am thinking of job hopping and want to stick to my next job for at
least 3 years to save enough for pursuit of PG studies in Finance
abroad. However, there lies the catch and here are my questions.

1. Considering a PG Finance happening over time for me, what does a
combination of Marketing and Finance mean - as a professional? How
does it add value to an Organization? (Other things like efficiency
and dedication taken constant!)

2. My vision is of leading a global business house which caters to
needs across regions. Which industry can be a worthwhile vista for
developing my expertise? Real Estates? Communications (Not only
Telecommunication - at the rate we are developing it might be a passe
in no time)? Or can nothing deliver to the mass as FMCGs?

Criticism and discussions are no less welcome than suggestions. Please
find free to air your ideas as I will hold them as important and very
much appreciated.

Thanks,
Pinaki.

[Scott Jensen]

Post by pinzzz
Let me introduce myself, to make it easier. I myself am an Indian by
nationality and global in perspective. I have had a business mindset
right from my childhood. I can document decently and am motivated by
myself. What intruges and inspters me are globally diverse cultures
and the communication stream. Communication hence is my subject of
interest and Marketing Communication is my profession.

"Marketing Communications"??? *LOL* That's redundant. Yes, I know
it is the current craze on universities but that doesn't make it
right. College business classes have as much to do with reality of
business as science fiction has to do with real science.

Pinaki, marketing is an umbrella concept. It has normally five major
components. Properly managed, they create a loop that improves the
marketing done over time. The basic loop is: Marketing Strategy ->
Public Relations -> Advertising -> Sales -> Market Research ->
Marketing Strategy and continue looping.

Marketing Strategy is the company's top marketer. Some stupid
companies believe that marketing strategy can be done by committee. I
have never seen such committee-created marketing succeed. What they
create are stupid things like Budweiser's frogs and "Wassup?" ad campaigns.
Yes, you might think those were successful but they weren't for what they were
trying to sell. Budweiser sales continued to shrink while those campaigns were
the darlings of popular media and the public. Anyway, the marketing strategist
(which is what I do for a living) comes up with the company's marketing plan.
All public relations and advertising stems out of that marketing plan.

Public relations is good for introducing a new product/service/
business. It can create buzz. It can make news and even headlines.
It can ignite global crazes. From a marketing standpoint, it will
give the company the biggest bang per marketing budget dollar spent on
it. However, it is still more an art than a science. To succeed,
your product/service/business needs to be unique, interesting, and
worth talking about. Think about that. That's a tall order to fill.
Because it is, that brings us to...

Advertising is the work horse of marketing. When you can no longer
get newspapers to write stories about your product/service/business,
all you have left is to pay the papers to run advertisements for it.
But don't think that advertising is easy. It is anything but. It is
actually harder than publicity. People do not like reading, viewing,
or listening to advertisements. As an advertising specialist, you got
to create a visually attractive ad that catches the public eye, a
headline to draw them in, a body of text that pulls them through your
pitch, and then usually get them to do some call-to-action at the end of the
ad. That last part is crucial to small businesses that have little ad dollars
to spend.

If your public relations and advertising efforts pay off, you will
generate sales for your company. These can be direct sales by your
call-to-action getting the public to call in orders, mail in filled-
out order forms, and/or purchase online from your company's website.
But the more expensive the ticket item, the more your PR and ads are
just to create leads for your sales force. And if you depend on a
sales force, you must develop canned pitches, sales literature,
training programs, and so forth for them to make them the best sales
force you can make them.

Last but not least, there is market research. Poor little market
research. The most hated part of all of marketing. The marketing
task most CEOs either depend too much on or distrust the most.
There's a CEO of a major cell phone company that absolutely hates
market research and refuses to listen to it. The truth of the matter
is that market research deserves all the bad reputation it has earned
over the decades. Or rather, normal market research does. Normal
market research not understanding its real role in the marketing loop
and thinking for some bizarre reason that they are the start of the
whole marketing process. Whenever market research replaces the
marketing strategist, only trouble will result. When do you know that
has happened? That's easy. It is when marketing strategy is decided
by committee. ;-)

Good market research is advisory only and never trusted. Good market
research tracks the success rates of public relations, advertising,
and sales efforts. Its job is to determine where the marketing plan
succeeded and failed. It then guesses the reason behind why the
outcomes came out the way they did. Please note that I used the word
"guesses" and not "determines". Honest market researchers know that
all they're doing is guessing and nothing more. Good market
researchers then inform the marketing strategist of their guesses.
The marketing strategist must always view the market research's
recommendations as just guesses and test their hypotheses. Oops!
Time to loop back to marketing strategy.

Great marketing strategy takes market research's guesses and develops
a way to test them with the next roll-out of the ever-evolving marketing plan.
If market research thinks that maybe a green background would sell more
than the current blue, that's fine. Let's split the next postcard
campaign so half have green as the background color and the other half
blue. Market research then tracks the two halves and informs the
marketing strategist of the results. And market research should
always to trying to figure out how the marketing plan can be improved and the
marketing strategist constantly tests their guesses with the next marketing
wave.

All this creats loop that is what marketing is all about. In my
opinion, the only person that can honestly call themselves a marketer
is the top person of a marketing department. Everyone below him
should be called by their specialty. Publicist, advertising
specialist, sales representative, or market researcher.

Now are there more than just the above five components of marketing?
Yes, but the above five are the usual core that all industries need.

Post by pinzzz
I want to develop an all round business overview and not just a specific
function like Marketing. This I guess is essential and unavoidable to
advance a career.

A strong argument can be made that everything in business is
marketing. Yes, even accounting. It is marketing that will determine
how much the public will pay for the company's product/service and not
accounting. Or to be more accurate, it will be market research that
will. Market research does have a large element of accounting to it,
but its master is the marketing strategist and not the company's
accountant/CFO.

Do also realize that that VAST majority of successful businesses have
CEOs that came up from marketing. The VAST majority of dying and failing
businesses have a CEO that came up from accounting, operations, or any
other department.

Post by pinzzz
Now, I am a bit confused. I have complete over a year and am looking
out for a change. This was prompted by the fact when I proposed a plan
or two to my boss. Brilliant idea he said, 'but have you an idea of
costs to be incurred?' I was for once at a loss for words. Then I
understood the necessity to understand 'money matters' - Finance, to
be exact.

No, you need to understand price points. For each increase in the
price of a product/service, how will that affect sales. That's not
finance or accounting. That's market research.

By the way, one of the hardest thing some non-marketing CEOs have a
problem understanding is that sometimes making your product cheaper
hurts sales. Too inexpensive and the product is viewed as "cheap" in
the negative sense. Increase its price and you increase its perceived
value and that can actually increase sales.

Post by pinzzz
I am thinking of job hopping and want to stick to my next job for at
least 3 years to save enough for pursuit of PG studies in Finance
abroad.

I would recommend that if you think numbers are that important, you
take market research courses and not finance. Personally, I hated elementary
sadistics ... errr, I mean elementary statistics. That and accounting.
Contrary to what your professors would like you to believe, numbers play a
minor role in marketing strategy.

Post by pinzzz
However, there lies the catch and here are my questions.
1. Considering a PG Finance happening over time for me, what does a
combination of Marketing and Finance mean - as a professional? How
does it add value to an Organization? (Other things like efficiency
and dedication taken constant!)

If you came to me looking for a job in my marketing department, I would wonder
why you got a double major in marketing and finance. To me, that makes as much
sense as getting a double major in marketing and janitorial services. As for
adding value to the company, I do not see where that combination would be viewed
positively ... unless you were wanting to specialize in doing
marketing for a finance company.

Post by pinzzz
2. My vision is of leading a global business house which caters to
needs across regions. Which industry can be a worthwhile vista for
developing my expertise? Real Estates? Communications (Not only
Telecommunication - at the rate we are developing it might be a passe
in no time)? Or can nothing deliver to the mass as FMCGs?

Hmmm. Personally, I just love the creative process that goes by the
name of "marketing". I believe I can market anything. Marketing can
be applied to any industry, even government. Now are some things more
fun to market than others? Hell yes! For example, right now I am
about to become the VP of Marketing (a.k.a. marketing strategist) for
an entertainment company that will be launching two dance clubs, a
fine restaurant, a Vegas pool, and four stripclubs (two high-end,
one for white and blue collars, and one for just blue collars). Being a
43-year-old heterosexual bachelor (no kids anywhere), this is going to be a
real fun job for me. That I will be very handsomely paid on top of it is
simply icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned for I really do love
marketing. I would do marketing for free and have done it for free numerous
times. I am just thrilled that people are willing to pay me and pay me well
for doing it for their companies. :-)

So, I guess, what I am saying Pinaki is that if you're a marketer at
heart, what industry you go into doesn't really matter. Hell, go
market coffins if you like. I can actually see where that could be
fun and challenging. New and different are always fun for me and all
great marketers I know. What you should be more concerned about is
finding a company that is willing to take you on as its marketing
stategist and give you a relatively free hand in running their
company's marketing. You find that and you have found a marketer's
paradise. I have with the company I will be joining this month. I
hope you find likewise wherever your journey takes you.

Good luck!

Scott

[Wayne Lundberg]

Post by Scott Jensen

Post by pinzzz
Let me introduce myself, to make it easier. I myself am an Indian by
nationality and global in perspective. I have had a business mindset
right from my childhood. I can document decently and am motivated by
myself. What intruges and inspters me are globally diverse cultures
and the communication stream. Communication hence is my subject of
interest and Marketing Communication is my profession.

"Marketing Communications"??? *LOL* That's redundant. Yes, I know
it is the current craze on universities but that doesn't make it
right. College business classes have as much to do with reality of
business as science fiction has to do with real science.

----- snip ----

Greatest reply and short course on marketing I have ever seen since
CompuServe started offering newsgroups back in the early 80's.

It should be cut, copied and filed somewhere safe for continuous
distribution to similar questions as the OP posed.

Great stuff Scott!

[creativechaos]

Hello,
Me thinks that some readers may have missed the boat on this question due to
language/cultural differences.

I'm thinking that the question of getting some education in Finance was more
in line of getting some understanding of budgeting and financial management
of a marketing group and/or at the company level.

Being able to generate new marketing ideas is one thing... To do so with a
well thought out budget and plan showing how every unit of currency spent
has the potential of adding multiple units of currency to the bottom line is
what I think your boss was asking for. Obviously, I wasn't there so you're
the best judge of this...

So to answer your question as I understand it... Yes, training in both
Marketing and Finance are necessary for business success in today's global
markets. Also keep in mind that positions in marketing are very competitive
and that having more skills may be the deciding factor in making an offer
for your skills.

Since you are starting your career, do keep a good record of your
achievements as the years go by. And remember to learn something new every
year.

If you really want to add to your skill set, I would seek out a M.B.A. At a
first tier University in the U.S. Or Canada if you plan on having a foot in
the North American market or one of the leading Universities in Europe
offering business degrees for European markets. That would also be Hautes
=C9tudes Commerciales in France.

It appears that you may have to work hard to overcome some of your cultural
indoctrinations and biases if you want to succeed in global markets where
success can mean making accommodations to bridge cultural divides... Being
tossed into the fire at a foreign college will either give you the necessary
insights for success or prove that a career in business may not be a good
fit with your talents.

Just a few thoughts...

J.P.

Post by pinzzz
Hi,
This is like those times when you feel more the heads better the
perspective. Evading my way of going around in circles in explaining
things on a public forum (partly because of my bit intorvert nature) I
will just get down to basic fact. I am looking for directions from
experienced Marketing professionals.
Let me introduce myself, to make it easier. I myself am an Indian by
nationality and global in perspective. I have had a business mindset
right from my childhood. I can document decently and am motivated by
myself. What intruges and inspters me are globally diverse cultures
and the communication stream. Communication hence is my subject of
interest and Marketing Communication is my profession.
I have completed my PG in communication management and presntly have
been plying my trade in the Indian Media sector. But I am not to be
bound in the same. Although I depend on numbers for my livelihood I
believe it's people from whom we media professionals derive numbers.
Understanding them is as inmportant as their responses. I want to
develop an all round business overview and not just a specific
function like Marketing. This I guess is essential and unavoidable to
advance a career.
Now, I am a bit confused. I have complete over a year and am looking
out for a change. This was prompted by the fact when I proposed a plan
or two to my boss. Brilliant idea he said, 'but have you an idea of
costs to be incurred?' I was for once at a loss for words. Then I
understood the necessity to understand 'money matters' - Finance, to
be exact.
I am thinking of job hopping and want to stick to my next job for at
least 3 years to save enough for pursuit of PG studies in Finance
abroad. However, there lies the catch and here are my questions.
1. Considering a PG Finance happening over time for me, what does a
combination of Marketing and Finance mean - as a professional? How
does it add value to an Organization? (Other things like efficiency
and dedication taken constant!)
2. My vision is of leading a global business house which caters to
needs across regions. Which industry can be a worthwhile vista for
developing my expertise? Real Estates? Communications (Not only
Telecommunication - at the rate we are developing it might be a passe
in no time)? Or can nothing deliver to the mass as FMCGs?
Criticism and discussions are no less welcome than suggestions. Please
find free to air your ideas as I will hold them as important and very
much appreciated.
Thanks,
Pinaki.

[Scott Jensen]

Post by creativechaos
Me thinks that some readers may have missed the boat on this question
due to language/cultural differences.

Gosh, since I was the only one to reply, it is my guess that "some
readers" you're referring to is me. *LOL*

Post by creativechaos
I'm thinking that the question of getting some education in Finance was more
in line of getting some understanding of budgeting and financial management
of a marketing group and/or at the company level.

I viewed the question is "Would it be worth my time?". To that I
answered "no".

Post by creativechaos
Being able to generate new marketing ideas is one thing... To do so with a
well thought out budget and plan showing how every unit of currency spent
has the potential of adding multiple units of currency to the bottom line is
what I think your boss was asking for.
Brilliant idea he said, 'but have you an idea of costs to be incurred?'

To make a jump from this to a need to get essentially another BA in
finance is an over-reaction. Or even needing to work out budget and
plan. If the OP had said, "Yes, it will cost $32,000 to do it.", that
might be all his boss was inquiring about. What it sounded like was
just a young brand-new college graduate proposing an idea without
thinking of the cost of the idea. It showed merely inexperience on
the part of the OP and his boss could have just been getting the OP to
think a bit more before suggesting.

Post by creativechaos
Obviously, I wasn't there so you're the best judge of this...

Agreed. Now if the OP's boss suggested to OP that he should get a BA
in Finance, that would be another thing.

Post by creativechaos
So to answer your question as I understand it... Yes, training in both
Marketing and Finance are necessary for business success in today's global
markets.

And you base this on what?

Post by creativechaos
Also keep in mind that positions in marketing are very competitive
and that having more skills may be the deciding factor in making an offer
for your skills.

No, it is one's track record and networking ability that will be the
major determining factors. Without job experience, the OP's value is
little. Their education merely shows an interest in the job. Their
GPA only shows they can remember what they studied and not if they can
do the job well. And once the OP has gotten his first job (as he has), his
education becomes essentially worthless as future employers will focus
on work experience and barely glance at what college degree the
applicant has.

Post by creativechaos
Since you are starting your career, do keep a good record of your
achievements as the years go by.

This is something people should do regardless where they are in their
career.

Post by creativechaos
And remember to learn something new every year.

I'd focus on spearheading a new project so you can claim its success
as your own.

Post by creativechaos
If you really want to add to your skill set, I would seek out a M.B.A. At a
first tier University in the U.S. Or Canada if you plan on having a foot in
the North American market or one of the leading Universities in Europe
offering business degrees for European markets. That would also be Hautes
=C9tudes Commerciales in France.

If you want to party for another year or two, sure, I'd suggest you go
after your MBA. If you want to help your career, go get yourself a
marketing job, prove you're good at it, and start networking for your
next. Again, a college degree only gets you your first job. After
that, it is your work experience and networking ability that will get
you your subsequent jobs.

Scott

[creativechaos]

It's good to stir things up a bit now and again... ;-)

Nothing wrong with your recommendations for people born in the U.S.A.

There is much more reliance on formal education and school ties in the rest
of the world. The U.K. Is still the European country that is closest to
adopting U.S. Flavored performance based evaluations and rewards.

The reason that foreigners benefit much more from a U.S. M.B.A. than the
average American student is that the foreign student already understands the
deeply rooted cultural, political and religious beliefs of their home
country and many of their neighbors. Total immersion in the U.S. Will
basically taint them (Conservatives in their home country will never fully
trust them again) but on the other hand they can eventually master the much
simpler rules of the American market (and also the European market) which
the ruling classes of their home countries will eventually value.

Marketing expertise in many countries is practically non-existent and often
considered irrelevant. Designer land mines have not yet hit the marketplace
(maybe an opportunity for a "lady boom boom" line in pink?).

Many American business people not only discount the realities of foreign
markets but go out of their way to alienate the key players in these markets
that they have to work with. The end result is that for some reason very
little effective business actually gets done by American business people.

By the way, many businesses in foreign markets are basically monopolies (or
act like one) and often consider factors other than P&L as most important
when making business decisions.

So yes... And no... There are no black and white absolute answers just
shades of gray... And it's up to the individual player to determine the
shade of gray they can live with...

Post by Scott Jensen

Post by creativechaos
So to answer your question as I understand it... Yes, training in both
Marketing and Finance are necessary for business success in today's global
markets.

And you base this on what?

I worked in marketing for the U.S. Headquarters of a Swedish and then later
for a Japanese well know corporation. The lead decision making managers for
both companies had combined marketing and financial expertise. Most also
where of the "tainted" category meaning that they no longer were considered
pure citizens of their home countries. Sort of a cultural mutt (not to use
the more down to earth equivalent).

By the way, I meant success to mean personal success of the original poster
not business success of the International business unit.



J.P.

PS: I did get my M.B.A. While working as a product planner... And I can tell
you that I did not have any time for partying... ;-)

Post by Scott Jensen

Post by creativechaos
Me thinks that some readers may have missed the boat on this question
due to language/cultural differences.

Gosh, since I was the only one to reply, it is my guess that "some
readers" you're referring to is me. *LOL*

Post by creativechaos
I'm thinking that the question of getting some education in Finance was more
in line of getting some understanding of budgeting and financial management
of a marketing group and/or at the company level.

I viewed the question is "Would it be worth my time?". To that I
answered "no".

Post by creativechaos
Being able to generate new marketing ideas is one thing... To do so with a
well thought out budget and plan showing how every unit of currency spent
has the potential of adding multiple units of currency to the bottom line is
what I think your boss was asking for.
Brilliant idea he said, 'but have you an idea of costs to be incurred?'

To make a jump from this to a need to get essentially another BA in
finance is an over-reaction. Or even needing to work out budget and
plan. If the OP had said, "Yes, it will cost $32,000 to do it.", that
might be all his boss was inquiring about. What it sounded like was
just a young brand-new college graduate proposing an idea without
thinking of the cost of the idea. It showed merely inexperience on
the part of the OP and his boss could have just been getting the OP to
think a bit more before suggesting.

Post by creativechaos
Obviously, I wasn't there so you're the best judge of this...

Agreed. Now if the OP's boss suggested to OP that he should get a BA
in Finance, that would be another thing.

Post by creativechaos
So to answer your question as I understand it... Yes, training in both
Marketing and Finance are necessary for business success in today's global
markets.

And you base this on what?

Post by creativechaos
Also keep in mind that positions in marketing are very competitive
and that having more skills may be the deciding factor in making an offer
for your skills.

No, it is one's track record and networking ability that will be the
major determining factors. Without job experience, the OP's value is
little. Their education merely shows an interest in the job. Their
GPA only shows they can remember what they studied and not if they can
do the job well. And once the OP has gotten his first job (as he has), his
education becomes essentially worthless as future employers will focus
on work experience and barely glance at what college degree the
applicant has.

Post by creativechaos
Since you are starting your career, do keep a good record of your
achievements as the years go by.

This is something people should do regardless where they are in their
career.

Post by creativechaos
And remember to learn something new every year.

I'd focus on spearheading a new project so you can claim its success
as your own.

Post by creativechaos
If you really want to add to your skill set, I would seek out a M.B.A. At a
first tier University in the U.S. Or Canada if you plan on having a foot in
the North American market or one of the leading Universities in Europe
offering business degrees for European markets. That would also be Hautes
=C9tudes Commercials in France.

If you want to party for another year or two, sure, I'd suggest you go
after your MBA. If you want to help your career, go get yourself a
marketing job, prove you're good at it, and start networking for your
next. Again, a college degree only gets you your first job. After
that, it is your work experience and networking ability that will get
you your subsequent jobs.
Scott

[Scott Jensen]

Post by creativechaos
It's good to stir things up a bit now and again... ;-)

Good! This newsgroups could sure use a little stirring. :-)

Post by creativechaos
Nothing wrong with your recommendations for people born in the U.S.A.
There is much more reliance on formal education and school ties in the rest
of the world. The U.K. Is still the European country that is closest to
adopting U.S. Flavored performance based evaluations and rewards.

I have been a business/marketing consultant for a number of foreign
companies over the years. In addition to US companies (the bulk), I
have advised companies in Europe, Asia, Africa, Middle East, and even
a couple in the Pacific. The Number One issue they all brought me on
board is naturally to improve their marketing. One of the first
things I had them do is hire based on an applicant's job experience
and to promote based on their job performance. For some of the
foreign companies, this was an odd new concept. But when they adopted
"my" system, their marketing results dramatically improved. I was
called "cut-throat" by many people in marketing department of foreign
companies. Yes, I was the cause of a lot of firings, but no American
would view what I proposed as cut-throat but simply logical and
expected. However, not all foreign companies needed this change. A
sizeable minority were already operating this way.

Post by creativechaos
The reason that foreigners benefit much more from a U.S. M.B.A. than the
average American student is that the foreign student already understands the
deeply rooted cultural, political and religious beliefs of their home
country and many of their neighbors. Total immersion in the U.S. Will
basically taint them (Conservatives in their home country will never fully
trust them again) but on the other hand they can eventually master the much
simpler rules of the American market (and also the European market) which
the ruling classes of their home countries will eventually value.

The "much simpler rules of the American market"??? Wow. I feel
mildly insulted. *LOL* Then again, some of the hardest things in
life to master are the simplest so I won't take total offense to your
remark.

There is also the aspect that foreigners benefit from merely getting
their college degree in the US. It shows they can deal with Americans
and are fluent in American English. Some Americans might disagree
with that last sentence but they wouldn't if they went and dealt with
people in foreign countries. You would be amazed what what some
foreigners consider to be fluency in American English. Pre-schoolers
could communicate better. And I have been told by many in foreign
countries that there is a glass ceiling for career advancement. Those
that are fluent in American English continue to rise in their careers
and those who are not hit the glass ceiling. The reason is that
international business is done in American English. If you cannot
speak it, your company will not send you to negotiate with other
foreign companies, which don't necessarily have to be American
companies.

I know of many business executives in foreign countries where English
(American or British) isn't their native language who send their
children to American boarding schools to help them get a step up on
life by being truly fluent in American English.

Post by creativechaos
Marketing expertise in many countries is practically non-existent and often
considered irrelevant. Designer land mines have not yet hit the marketplace
(maybe an opportunity for a "lady boom boom" line in pink?).

I love those that consider marketing irrelevant. I love crushing
them. Bwahahahaha!

Post by creativechaos
Many American business people not only discount the realities of foreign
markets but go out of their way to alienate the key players in these markets
that they have to work with. The end result is that for some reason very
little effective business actually gets done by American business people.

Hmmm. Another insult. Hmmm. I would have to disagree with such an
anti-American statement. My experience as a consultant would indicate
the opposite.

Post by creativechaos
By the way, many businesses in foreign markets are basically monopolies (or
act like one) and often consider factors other than P&L as most important
when making business decisions.

And those other factors being?

All the foreign businesses that have engaged my services were almost
solely considered with P&L. The ones that weren't solely focused on
P&L brought me in for additional reasons, such as transitioning the
family business from one generation to the next.

Post by creativechaos
So yes... And no... There are no black and white absolute answers just
shades of gray... And it's up to the individual player to determine the
shade of gray they can live with...

Marketing is marketing. It doesn't change with geographical location
or industry or anything else. Countless times over my life I have
heard the phrase, "We're different." and all its variations. How
marketing priniciples don't apply to this industry or that country.
Bullshit. Marketing principles are marketing principles because they
are basic to all situations. They operated within USSR (the "black
market" then) and have operated in all nations. Yes, there are
government monopolies and oppression but I have yet to see where such
have really helped a country. So I guess I would disagree. There are
black and white. Some people hate the idea of black and white and
like to think there's instead only gray but that's their problem and
not mine.

Post by creativechaos

Post by Scott Jensen

Post by creativechaos
So to answer your question as I understand it... Yes, training in both
Marketing and Finance are necessary for business success in today's global
markets.

And you base this on what?

I worked in marketing for the U.S. Headquarters of a Swedish and then later
for a Japanese well know corporation. The lead decision making managers for
both companies had combined marketing and financial expertise. Most also
where of the "tainted" category meaning that they no longer were considered
pure citizens of their home countries. Sort of a cultural mutt (not to use
the more down to earth equivalent).

It is an odd world you have lived in. Sorry but my life experiences
were of a different sort. But, then again, I might be one of those
blind Americans that don't see things as they are in foreign lands.
*LOL*

Post by creativechaos
By the way, I meant success to mean personal success of the original poster
not business success of the International business unit.

I meant success as far as the OP's career in marketing.

Scott

[Gary Peek]

Post by Scott Jensen
Marketing is marketing. It doesn't change with geographical location
or industry or anything else. Countless times over my life I have
heard the phrase, "We're different." and all its variations. How
marketing priniciples don't apply to this industry or that country.
Bullshit. Marketing principles are marketing principles because they
are basic to all situations.

Scott,

I have been thinking about this argument which is often made by
marketing professionals. I agree in principal, but the people
that are saying "We are different" are really _trying to tell
you something_. They may not even know it or do not know how to
explain this to you because it might be at a subconscious level.

I think they are trying to tell you that they are uncomfortable
taking those marketing principals to the extent to which you
would. I think that is where the "shades of gray" comes from.

For example, I want my customers to purchase the best product for
their job or project, even if it is not ours. It is a principle I
stand by.

That may very well violate a basic marketing concept like
Attention, Interest, Desire, and Action. I don't want them to
"desire" a product because I have "marketed" it. I want them
to understand the features of the product to the extent that
they have confidence that it is the ideal product for their
job or project.

Gary Peek
Industrologic, Inc.

[Scott Jensen]

Post by Gary Peek

Post by Scott Jensen
Marketing is marketing. It doesn't change with geographical location
or industry or anything else. Countless times over my life I have
heard the phrase, "We're different." and all its variations. How
marketing priniciples don't apply to this industry or that country.
Bullshit. Marketing principles are marketing principles because they
are basic to all situations.

I have been thinking about this argument which is often made by
marketing professionals. I agree in principal, but the people
that are saying "We are different" are really _trying to tell
you something_. They may not even know it or do not know how to
explain this to you because it might be at a subconscious level.
I think they are trying to tell you that they are uncomfortable
taking those marketing principals to the extent to which you
would. I think that is where the "shades of gray" comes from.
For example, I want my customers to purchase the best product for
their job or project, even if it is not ours. It is a principle I
stand by.
That may very well violate a basic marketing concept like
Attention, Interest, Desire, and Action. I don't want them to
"desire" a product because I have "marketed" it. I want them
to understand the features of the product to the extent that
they have confidence that it is the ideal product for their
job or project.

You're getting marketing principles mixed up with marketing goals.
They are not one and the same. What you're stating are marketing
goals you wish to achieve (e.g. a satisfied customer), not principles on which
marketing is based.

Scott

[Gary Peek]

Post by Scott Jensen
You're getting marketing principles mixed up with marketing goals.

That's entirely possible. But what did the OP means by this?:

"So yes... And no... There are no black and white absolute answers just
shades of gray... And it's up to the individual player to determine the
shade of gray they can live with..."

[Scott Jensen]

Post by Gary Peek

Post by Scott Jensen
You're getting marketing principles mixed up with marketing goals.

"So yes... And no... There are no black and white absolute answers just
shades of gray... And it's up to the individual player to determine the
shade of gray they can live with..."

You're not quoting the OP. The OP is "pinzzz" who posted on July
30th ... and has yet to post a subsequent post to his own thread.

Scott

[Gary Peek]

Post by Scott Jensen

Post by Gary Peek

Post by Scott Jensen
You're getting marketing principles mixed up with marketing goals.

"So yes... And no... There are no black and white absolute answers just
shades of gray... And it's up to the individual player to determine the
shade of gray they can live with..."

You're not quoting the OP. The OP is "pinzzz" who posted on July
30th ... and has yet to post a subsequent post to his own thread.

Very well, "creativechaos" then.

"Shades of gray" and "..What they can live with" sounds a lot
like what I was talking about, as does, "...often consider factors
other than P&L as most important when making business decisions."

I think "creativechaos" would agree (like myself) that all
marketing principles are indeed the same, but that you cannot
apply all of them in certain circumstances (foreign countries
is his example.)

At that point I think he was referring to marketing goals, so
his comments were appropriate.

I also think marketing people are eager to say "bullshit" when
someone says "we're different" before determining whether they
are talking about marketing principles or marketing goals.

[Scott Jensen]

J.P.,

I got your email but my reply was bounced back. As it isn't anything
to do with national security, the following is my reply. If you want
to try to communicate again by way of email, I would suggest trying
another email address as your return address next time. Now my short
replies to your email...

A prime marketing principle is knowing your market so there is no
disagreement on that point.

As for the Japanese being better at it than Americans (since that's
what I've done numerous times over my career as a marketing consultant
for foreign companies), I will have to disagree on this point but see
no point in arguing it.

Scott

[pinzzz]

Well the OP or 'pinzzz' has been here around, listening.

And he is pretty much engrossed in the arguments/counter-arguments and
other inticate (inter-cultural and et al) issues. It's an education in
itself. And I completey accept. :)

[creativechaos]

Sorry, I must have clicked on Reply to Sender instead of Reply to
Newsgroup... My mistake.

Thanks for the response.

By the way, lets just say that a lot of American business people need to
practice listening and understanding before talking... But that's just my
opinion... ;-)

J.P.

Post by Scott Jensen
J.P.,
I got your email but my reply was bounced back. As it isn't anything
to do with national security, the following is my reply. If you want
to try to communicate again by way of email, I would suggest trying
another email address as your return address next time. Now my short
replies to your email...
A prime marketing principle is knowing your market so there is no
disagreement on that point.
As for the Japanese being better at it than Americans (since that's
what I've done numerous times over my career as a marketing consultant
for foreign companies), I will have to disagree on this point but see
no point in arguing it.
Scott

[Scott Jensen]

Post by creativechaos
By the way, lets just say that a lot of American business people need to
practice listening and understanding before talking... But that's just my
opinion... ;-)

And a lot of foreigners need to get over the idea that their market is a
completely unique creature never before seen on Earth. That and laws of
physics don't apply within their borders. But that's just my opinion. ;-)

Scott