Discussion:
Segue into Marketing from CS?
(too old to reply)
Count_Rugen
2007-12-06 06:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Hey all,
Long story short is:
1.) I'm trying to move from a career founded in Web Development/
Programming into a career in Marketing.
2.) I've just recently started college part-time (just one or two
classes a semester) in Marketing.
3.) I already have a degree in Computer Science.
4.) I already have about 5 years development work experience under my
belt (since I got my CS degree).

Obviously it'll take me some time to get my degree in Marketing, but
I'd like to start planning a segue now. Someone has already suggested
going to work for a small company where I'd be required to wear
several different hats and using that to somehow spin my resume to
make my programming experience seem more business oriented.

I could use some advice. My only real concern is that I'm trying to
make the shift gradually so that I'm not forced to "start over" from
scratch (from a career/income perspective).

I'd just appreciate any input you all may have to offer, even if it is
to tell me that there is no way to effectively segue w/o a large
income drop.

Thanks
John A. Weeks III
2007-12-06 17:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Count_Rugen
I could use some advice. My only real concern is that I'm trying to
make the shift gradually so that I'm not forced to "start over" from
scratch (from a career/income perspective).
I'd just appreciate any input you all may have to offer, even if it is
to tell me that there is no way to effectively segue w/o a large
income drop.
I don't see how you will avoid the drop in pay. You are moving
from an experienced slot in a high paying field over to an
entry level position in a lower paying field.

I'd be less worried about money at the first job or two, and
be more worried about learning and performance. If you are
good, the money will follow.

-john-
--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 ***@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================
Scott Jensen
2007-12-06 22:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by John A. Weeks III
I don't see how you will avoid the drop in pay. You are
moving from an experienced slot in a high paying field
over to an entry level position in a lower paying field.
Marketing a lower playing field? What?! It is just the opposite.
The upper end of marketing is only beaten by a job that comes with the
title "CEO". And the vast majority of CEOs became CEO after heading
up the marketing department. Any company that isn't headed by a
competent marketer is a doomed company since a company will rise or
fall on its marketing. It doesn't matter if you have a better
mousetrap if my inferior mousetrap is the one everyone knows and
trusts.

Now marketing does include a wide range of jobs and some of these are
low-paying. A salesperson at Best Buy is paid an hourly wage and not
also a sales commission. Personally, I wouldn't call Best Buy
salespersons salespeople but more "customer service representatives"
as they're more just informing customers of what Best Buy sells than
doing any hard sales work.
Post by John A. Weeks III
I'd be less worried about money at the first job or two, and
be more worried about learning and performance. If you are
good, the money will follow.
I totally agree on that last sentence. How far you get in marketing
depends on your talent for marketing. Talent rises. It can be hurt
by lack of social skills (a MAJOR problem with IT people), but since
social skills are essentially personal marketing skills, if you lack
one, you'll lack the other.

Scott
John A. Weeks III
2007-12-07 03:33:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Jensen
Post by John A. Weeks III
I don't see how you will avoid the drop in pay. You are
moving from an experienced slot in a high paying field
over to an entry level position in a lower paying field.
Marketing a lower playing field? What?! It is just the opposite.
The upper end of marketing is only beaten by a job that comes with the
title "CEO". And the vast majority of CEOs became CEO after heading
up the marketing department. Any company that isn't headed by a
competent marketer is a doomed company since a company will rise or
fall on its marketing. It doesn't matter if you have a better
mousetrap if my inferior mousetrap is the one everyone knows and
trusts.
Two rebuttals...

1) the most common job field for CEOs of public companies is
accounting. The most common college major is business, with
accounting being the largest subset.

2) I based salaries on both personal experience and looking
at salary survey guides published by industry associations.
In the salary surveys that I saw, you had to be a fairly senior
manager to get $100K, and none of the non-manager jobs were
listed that high. In IT, $100K is the floor level for manager
salaries, and several job classes fetch $100K without even being
a manager. Examples include database administrator and security
auditor.

Any CEO that is actively doing marketing is neglecting his or
her real duties of running the company. You can hire marketing,
accounting, IT people, but good CEOs are born.

-john-
--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708 ***@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================
Sohail Somani
2007-12-07 10:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by John A. Weeks III
You can hire marketing,
accounting, IT people, but good CEOs are born.
What the heck does a CEO do anyway?
--
Sohail Somani
http://uint32t.blogspot.com
Scott Jensen
2007-12-07 10:21:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John A. Weeks III
Post by Scott Jensen
Post by John A. Weeks III
I don't see how you will avoid the drop in pay. You are
moving from an experienced slot in a high paying field
over to an entry level position in a lower paying field.
Marketing a lower playing field? What?! It is just the opposite.
The upper end of marketing is only beaten by a job that comes with the
title "CEO". And the vast majority of CEOs became CEO after heading
up the marketing department. Any company that isn't headed by a
competent marketer is a doomed company since a company will rise or
fall on its marketing. It doesn't matter if you have a better
mousetrap if my inferior mousetrap is the one everyone knows and
trusts.
Two rebuttals...
1) the most common job field for CEOs of public companies is
accounting.
Because utilities and other businesses with government-sanctioned
monopolies or whose sole business is to just fulfill government
contracts are normally included with such lists of public companies, I
don't trust those stats. With those types of companies, an accountant
is fine as a CEO since they have no competition and their prices are
fixed (usually by politicians). Given this, I go by the CEOs I
personally know and read about. On this basis, the majority of CEOs
come from the marketing department. Of the CEOs of free-market major
corporations that come from accounting whom I know, not one of them is
worth a damn and usually indicates a company that is at best stagnant
(usually in decline) or currently hunting for a new CEO (the CFO put
in as a temp CEO to maintain the course until the new captain takes
the helm).
Post by John A. Weeks III
The most common college major is business, with
accounting being the largest subset.
A marketing degree is commonly listed as a business degree. Normally
listed as "majoring in business administration with an emphasis in
marketing".
Post by John A. Weeks III
2) I based salaries on both personal experience and looking
at salary survey guides published by industry associations.
In the salary surveys that I saw, you had to be a fairly senior
manager to get $100K, and none of the non-manager jobs were
listed that high. In IT, $100K is the floor level for manager
salaries, and several job classes fetch $100K without even being
a manager. Examples include database administrator and security
auditor.
Here's from Salary.com (10023 used as the zip code):

Chief Information Technology Officer:
Top 90% of their salary range: $316,107 (with bonuses $388,409)

Top Sales and Marketing Executive:
Top 90% of their salary range: $436,928 (with bonuses $716,975)

There's no comparison between the two.
Post by John A. Weeks III
Any CEO that is actively doing marketing is neglecting his or
her real duties of running the company. You can hire marketing,
accounting, IT people, but good CEOs are born.
What on the Earth do you think running a company means? It is
overseeing all the departments and making sure they do their job.
What job is the most important job in a company? Marketing. IT
people are just janitors. They keep the company running but very
rarely have anything to do with deciding its direction. Only if they
fail to do their job are they even noticed by the CEO and Board of
Directors. What is the most focused on document in any major
corporation? Its current marketing plan. If you're able to, attend
some meeting of corporate Boards of Directors and after the CFO gives
the current state of the company, you will see that all talk turns to
marketing. It is for this reason that CEOs come from the marketing
department.

And CEOs are not born. Where do you get this non-sense? That's a
cliche at best.

Scott
Roy
2007-12-07 21:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Jensen
Post by Count_Rugen
1.) I'm trying to move from a career founded in Web
Development/Programming into a career in Marketing.
Why? Why do you want to become a marketer? I know why I'm a marketer
and I've known this about myself for my whole life. In other words,
what I am asking you is why did you first go into Web Development /
Programming and now want to go into marketing. It would be
interesting to learn why you want to do the shift and we might be able
to give you input based on those reasons.
I recognize what I'm about to say may sound conceited. With that
prefaced...I'm good at everything. Really. I haven't yet found
anything that I can't become very proficient at with very little
practice. Furthermore, I'm interested in a lot of different subjects.
I can see myself in any number of careers and see myself enjoying all
of them. Why I went into web development is because I had a child
early and programming was (and is) a boom industry. In short (while I
like the creativity and income that programming provides), I went into
it for the money. I didn't need a degree in CS at all. I developed my
career IN SPITE of the fact that I was attending school, not because
of it. My degree hasn't done anything for me that I hadn't already
done/learned myself.

Me reconsidering my options is my way of identifying and working
towards a "life goal." Something worth putting on a tombstone. I've
already "made it" as far as most societal goals go. Now I want a
personal goal outside of just making more money.
Post by Scott Jensen
MARKETING STRATEGY In this day and age of political-correctness, the
marketing director will say that everyone in a marketing department
makes its marketing strategy.
I can see myself enjoying this.
Post by Scott Jensen
PUBLIC RELATIONS Public relations should come first because it gives
the marketer the most bang for his marketing buck. A one-inch
I can see myself not enjoying this. I do not mind meeting people, and
my social skills are fine (I'd say I'm extroverted), however, doing
that as a full-time job? I think not. I wouldn't mind being in PR were
it merely a peripheral function.
Post by Scott Jensen
ADVERTISING Ever try to tell your loved one how much you love them in
at least 1,000 words without using examples. Go ahead. Think of how
you would do it. Try it.
This is not that difficult for me, but I would take issue with it,
were you my teacher. The goal shouldn't be how many ways you can come
up with saying "i love you" it should be coming up with saying "i love
you" in the smallest, most focused way possible. I write for fun now.
What stops me from writing a novel (I typically just write short
stories) is that it's too long. I like variety and my interest in a
plot tapers off after about 4-8 pages. My short stories are all plot.
I squeeze out all filler.

Advertising is where I would have the most fun, I suspect.
Post by Scott Jensen
The truth of the matter is that advertisers are the most creative people on
the face of the Earth.

This is exactly what programmers/web devs and graphic artists say
about their respective careers. ;-)
Post by Scott Jensen
SALES Some people don't think sales is part of marketing, but those
are usually marketing professors. *laugh* In reality, sales is a
I do not see myself enjoying this function, unless it were a
peripheral function. I do like variety.
Post by Scott Jensen
MARKET RESEARCH Though I could easily call this "The Hated Market
Research" due to how many CEOs hate it. However, properly done market
Yet another area I would shine in.
Post by Scott Jensen
Post by Count_Rugen
2.) I've just recently started college part-time (just one or two
classes a semester) in Marketing.
Sorry, but I think marketing courses at any college is a waste of time
for a wannabe marketer.
I'm one step ahead of you.
This was exactly my thinking after my semester meeting with my dept
head yesterday. As I looked over my upcoming classes I intuitively
recognized ones that had potential and others which are worthless. Me
getting a marketing degree (I suspect) will end up exactly why I got a
degree in CS: just because it's nice to have a piece of paper.
However, it does suck to incur debt or pay for useless classes. I'll
learn what seems right and spurn the rest.
Post by Scott Jensen
Want to book learn about marketing? Fine. Read David Ogilvy's
"Ogilvy on Advertising",
This was impetus to considering Marketing. Thanks for the
recommendations. I may check them out.
Post by Scott Jensen
But don't go to college. All the psychology knowledge I listed above
can be learned from books for sale at your local bookstore. Buy them
and then highlight them as you read them. Highlight what you didn't
know and find valuable. You can then later re-read your highlights to
keep the information fresh in your head.
I have been in one sociology college course and one pyschology course
in my lifetime. I own an entire shelf's worth of psychology and
sociology textbooks. I read up on those subjects for fun during my
psychology phase, enough so that I considered time and again a career
in sociology. Then I moved onto my math phase. I'm now into a writing
phase. Each phase lasted 1-3 years and hasn't really gone away...just
slipped a few rungs down the ladder.

At each stage I cobbled together all manner of crazy theories and
concepts which I wrote down for continuation the next time I entered
those phases. Some (like the "Fractal Theory of human behavior") are
fairly coherent, and some are all over the place. In short, I'm a
smart guy with deep insight into human behavior already. I just have
too many interests and my current career focus is beginning to bore
me.
Post by Scott Jensen
Post by Count_Rugen
3.) I already have a degree in Computer Science.
4.) I already have about 5 years development work
experience under my belt (since I got my CS degree).
I would recommend you use the above to your advantage. Sell yourself
as the marketer for a small computer consulting firm. Yup, a one-man-
marketing-department.
This is an excellent suggestion but would entail far more in the way
of sales pitching than I would care for.
Post by Scott Jensen
As for doing marketing for a computer consulting firm, the truth of
the matter is that the majority of high-profit-margin sales is made
through in-the-flesh networking.
I'm not interested in money (or rather, that is not the end-all-be-all
for me).

Thanks for the very informative post! It's appreciated. :)

-Roy
Scott Jensen
2007-12-07 23:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy
Post by Scott Jensen
Post by Count_Rugen
1.) I'm trying to move from a career founded in Web
Development/Programming into a career in Marketing.
Why? Why do you want to become a marketer? I know why I'm a marketer
and I've known this about myself for my whole life. In other words,
what I am asking you is why did you first go into Web Development /
Programming and now want to go into marketing. It would be
interesting to learn why you want to do the shift and we might be able
to give you input based on those reasons.
I recognize what I'm about to say may sound conceited.
Thankfully, I have never had that problem.
Post by Roy
Me reconsidering my options is my way of identifying and working
towards a "life goal." Something worth putting on a tombstone. I've
already "made it" as far as most societal goals go. Now I want a
personal goal outside of just making more money.
With for-profit companies, marketing is all about making more money.
And even though I love marketing, it isn't something I have ever
thought about putting on my tombstone.
Post by Roy
Post by Scott Jensen
MARKETING STRATEGY In this day and age of political-correctness, the
marketing director will say that everyone in a marketing department
makes its marketing strategy.
I can see myself enjoying this.
As Roy approaches and says the above sentence, a burly guy replies,
"Join the crowd, bud. That and get your ass all the way to the end of
the line. No butting in line!"

Every single person in a marketing department wants to be the
marketing strategist. Hell, if they knew what the job enabled you to
do and were honest about it, everyone in the company would want to be
the marketing strategist since it is he who has the biggest impact on
the success and direction of the company. Yup, even the CEO and
that's where things can become dicey between the head marketer and the
CEO. Very dicey.
Post by Roy
Post by Scott Jensen
PUBLIC RELATIONS Public relations should come first because it gives
the marketer the most bang for his marketing buck. A one-inch
I can see myself not enjoying this. I do not mind meeting people, and
my social skills are fine (I'd say I'm extroverted), however, doing
that as a full-time job? I think not. I wouldn't mind being in PR were
it merely a peripheral function.
If you want to be the marketing strategist, you need at least a
thorough understanding on how public relations works. And, to be
honest, I cannot see you being a good marketing strategist if you
don't love PR. It is the darling of marketing. Massive impact for
little cost. And what don't you like about PR? Meeting people???
Post by Roy
Post by Scott Jensen
ADVERTISING Ever try to tell your loved one how much you love them in
at least 1,000 words without using examples. Go ahead. Think of how
you would do it. Try it.
This is not that difficult for me, but I would take issue with it,
were you my teacher. The goal shouldn't be how many ways you can come
up with saying "i love you" it should be coming up with saying "i love
you" in the smallest, most focused way possible. I write for fun now.
What stops me from writing a novel (I typically just write short
stories) is that it's too long. I like variety and my interest in a
plot tapers off after about 4-8 pages. My short stories are all plot.
I squeeze out all filler.
No, you're missing the point of the exercise. The exercise is to come
up with 1,000 words. Not to come up with the fewest possible. As an
advertising executive, you will have used up your "smallest, most
focused way possible" with your first ad. Now what? Repeat it over
again? How many times? Repeated exposures are necessary but the
results-returned line begins to curve down and then soon plummets with
too many exposures. Ok, now what? What else can you say? How else
can you say it without it coming across to the reader as you repeating
yourself? That's the point of the exercise. That is the challenge of
advertising.
Post by Roy
Advertising is where I would have the most fun, I suspect.
Probably not if what you've just said is what you want to do. If
that's who you are, you will quickly become frustrated with the routine
advertising assignments given to you. Same old horse but just needing
a different color. Oh, and the horse has already had 1,000 different
colors on it. Now go and find us a new one.
Post by Roy
Post by Scott Jensen
SALES Some people don't think sales is part of marketing, but those
are usually marketing professors. *laugh* In reality, sales is a
I do not see myself enjoying this function, unless it were a
peripheral function. I do like variety.
Every potential client is a new challenge. You cannot use the same
sales pitch with every potential client. Personally, I think sales
offers the most variety of all marketing jobs for just this reason.
Post by Roy
Post by Scott Jensen
MARKET RESEARCH Though I could easily call this "The Hated Market
Research" due to how many CEOs hate it. However, properly done market
Yet another area I would shine in.
If you like variety, stay far FAR away from market research. Market
research is the accounting of the marketing department. Boring,
boring, and even more boring. I sure hope you like to crunch numbers
and that you get aroused by charting them. Properly managed market
research is, for the most part, watching and tracking others actually
do things. Only the analysts (which there might only be one and
that's the head of the market research department) get to do the
guesswork about the "why" behind the successes and failures. And that
is just a very small part of their job. The cool cup of water after
plowing the hundred arces with an old mule during the beating heat of
the blazing sun.
Post by Roy
Post by Scott Jensen
Post by Count_Rugen
2.) I've just recently started college part-time (just one or two
classes a semester) in Marketing.
Sorry, but I think marketing courses at any college is a waste of time
for a wannabe marketer.
I'm one step ahead of you.
This was exactly my thinking after my semester meeting with my dept
head yesterday. As I looked over my upcoming classes I intuitively
recognized ones that had potential and others which are worthless. Me
getting a marketing degree (I suspect) will end up exactly why I got a
degree in CS: just because it's nice to have a piece of paper.
However, it does suck to incur debt or pay for useless classes. I'll
learn what seems right and spurn the rest.
Why do you think you need a piece of paper to be a marketer?
Post by Roy
Post by Scott Jensen
But don't go to college. All the psychology knowledge I listed above
can be learned from books for sale at your local bookstore. Buy them
and then highlight them as you read them. Highlight what you didn't
know and find valuable. You can then later re-read your highlights to
keep the information fresh in your head.
I have been in one sociology college course and one pyschology course
in my lifetime. I own an entire shelf's worth of psychology and
sociology textbooks. I read up on those subjects for fun during my
psychology phase, enough so that I considered time and again a career
in sociology. Then I moved onto my math phase. I'm now into a writing
phase. Each phase lasted 1-3 years and hasn't really gone away...just
slipped a few rungs down the ladder.
At each stage I cobbled together all manner of crazy theories and
concepts which I wrote down for continuation the next time I entered
those phases. Some (like the "Fractal Theory of human behavior") are
fairly coherent, and some are all over the place. In short, I'm a
smart guy with deep insight into human behavior already. I just have
too many interests and my current career focus is beginning to bore
me.
I'm afraid you will then quickly find a marketing career boring. It
involves a lot of repetition and doing what has been done before.
Post by Roy
Post by Scott Jensen
Post by Count_Rugen
3.) I already have a degree in Computer Science.
4.) I already have about 5 years development work
experience under my belt (since I got my CS degree).
I would recommend you use the above to your advantage. Sell yourself
as the marketer for a small computer consulting firm. Yup, a one-man-
marketing-department.
This is an excellent suggestion but would entail far more in the way
of sales pitching than I would care for.
Sales pitching is done in all sectors of marketing. Hell, the head
marketer is constantly doing sales pitches. He is constantly selling
the CEO, Board of Directors, other department heads, outside marketing
firms, and everyone in his marketing department on his marketing
strategy and plan. Constantly. Everyone wants to tinker with it
since it is what will determine the success or failure of the company.
As marketing strategist, I probably have more in common with a used-
car dealer and a medieval knight than a head-in-the-clouds artist or
theorist. Quickly the newness of the marketing plan wears off and
people want to inject new newness into it. As marketing strategist, I
have to fight to keep the plan as is so it can do what it needs to do
and not be constantly changing directions. You never finish a
marathon if you're constantly changing directions.
Post by Roy
Post by Scott Jensen
As for doing marketing for a computer consulting firm, the truth of
the matter is that the majority of high-profit-margin sales is made
through in-the-flesh networking.
I'm not interested in money (or rather, that is not the end-all-be-all
for me).
Your employer will be and you better be too. If you're not, you're
not right for marketing. Us marketers are greedy bastards and businesses want
us that way. We expect to be paid according to our performance and paid more
than anyone else in the company. This is why marketers have the largest
bonuses in a company. Our base salaries are good but we expect to double it
with our performance bonuses. The reason why we expect that is because we
bring home the bacon and we know it. Our loyalty is also for sale. If another
company offers us a better opportunity, our letter of resignation will
be on our boss' desk when we get back from that meeting.
Post by Roy
Thanks for the very informative post! It's appreciated. :)
You're welcomed.

Scott

Scott Jensen
2007-12-07 10:19:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Count_Rugen
1.) I'm trying to move from a career founded in Web
Development/Programming into a career in Marketing.
Why? Why do you want to become a marketer? I know why I'm a marketer
and I've known this about myself for my whole life. In other words,
what I am asking you is why did you first go into Web Development /
Programming and now want to go into marketing. It would be
interesting to learn why you want to do the shift and we might be able
to give you input based on those reasons.

Also, realize that marketing is an umbrella term. In reality, there
is only one marketer in a company and that is the person that heads
the marketing department. Everyone else in a marketing department is
a specialist. This is because marketing is, again, an umbrella
concept. Basically, marketing consists of five components and,
managed properly by the company's marketer (a.k.a. VP of Marketing,
Director of Marketing, etc.), s/he creates an ever-improving loop
where one component feeds on another and feeds a later one. The five-
part loop starts with...

MARKETING STRATEGY In this day and age of political-correctness, the
marketing director will say that everyone in a marketing department
makes its marketing strategy. In reality, that's PC bullshit. Only
one person makes marketing strategy and that's the company's head
marketer (a.k.a. Chief Marketing Officer [CMO], VP of Marketing,
etc.). For a marketing strategy to work, it must have a single solid
coherent vision and that is only possible when ONE person makes it. A
marketing strategy made by more than one person or, worse, a committee
is doomed. It is like the old joke. A camel is a horse designed by
committee. Out of the marketing strategy comes the marketing plan.
The marketing plan is how the head marketer plans to execute his
marketing strategy. The marketing strategy is the grand vision
whereas the marketing plan is the blueprints to building that vision.
Out of the marketing plan first comes...

PUBLIC RELATIONS Public relations should come first because it gives
the marketer the most bang for his marketing buck. A one-inch
paragraph in an article in the Wall Street Journal about your product/
service/company is worth FAR more than a full-page two-page-spread ad
in WSJ. The reason is because that mention of your product/service/
company in that news article is being said by a supposedly objective
third party whereas your two-page-spread is said by you. In other
words, people will believe what the reporter says about you and, at
best, be wary of what you have to say about yourself. Another great
thing about PR is its cost-effectiveness. To get that mention in WSJ
could be achieved with one phone call to or from a reporter. Getting
that phone call is the challenge but, again, on a cost basis, it is
insanely cheap. However, there is a major problem with PR and that it
is almost only effective IF you have something new and exciting to
tell. Your company discovers the cure for aging and your company will
be on the front page of every newspaper, the cover of every news
magazine, and the lead story on every TV and radio newscast in the
world. Your company comes out with the new scent of "lemon-orange"
for the bar soap you make and not even bloggers will mention it.
Without something newsworthy, PR isn't possible and when that's the
boat you're in, it means you have to use marketing's old workhorse:

ADVERTISING Ever try to tell your loved one how much you love them in
at least 1,000 words without using examples. Go ahead. Think of how
you would do it. Try it. Sit down right now and try to think of
1,000 words on how much you love your loved one without repeating
yourself or giving examples. You might think it isn't that hard, but
if you think that, then really do try to do it. You will find after a
mere 200 words, your progress will slow down. After 500 words, you
will be reaching into the back of your brain for something original to
say. After 750, you will start to scream. When you hit 1,000, you
will yell "Made it!", not add one more word, and collapse from mental
exhaustion. Welcome to the world of advertising. As an advertising
executive, you have to sell the same old shoe again and again. Each
time, you need to make it seem new and exciting ... while knowing it
is anything but. But that's your job. How can you get eyeballs to
read one more shoe magazine ad? Or watch one more TV commercial for
shoes? Or to look over the direct-mail brochure instead of
immediately trashing it once the recipient has identified it as junk
mail? The truth of the matter is that advertisers are the most
creative people on the face of the Earth. They're not trying to
create something new. They are trying to make people believe
something old is new. Not only that but they have the added demand of
getting people to then buy, use, or donate to it!

SALES Some people don't think sales is part of marketing, but those
are usually marketing professors. *laugh* In reality, sales is a
crucial part of marketing. It is the "end" result. [You will
understand in a bit why I put quote marks around one of the words in
that last sentence in a moment.] For the marketer, the sole purpose
of public relations and advertising is to generate sales. The
purchasing of one's product or service, the donating of money to one's
cause, the voting for one's candidate, or whatever. Sales is action.
Action by customers that generates what your company (or non-profit)
is trying to get from the public. It can be direct sales where the
person gets a direct-mail brochure and convinced to go to the
company's website and buy online a box of your lemon-orange-scented
soap bars. Or it could be to produce leads for your sales force. To
get people to stop into your car dealership ... or call up your
accounting firm's "new accounts" sales rep ... or whatever. Sales is
the unit of measure of the success or failure of your public relations
and/or advertising efforts. However, it isn't the measuring stick.
That is...

MARKET RESEARCH Though I could easily call this "The Hated Market
Research" due to how many CEOs hate it. However, properly done market
research is crucial for a business' success. Unfortunately, most
market research is improperly done. What's the difference between the
two? That's simple. Who directs market research? Answer that and
you will know the answer. If market research directs itself, it is
worse than useless. It can damage a company. This is how the Ford
Edsel, New Coke, and Pets.com came into existence. If the head
marketer directs market research, it will be cost-effective and
actually help the company succeed. Good market research tracks
EVERYTHING the marketing department does, makes educated guesses why
something worked (or didn't), and then passes along this information
and guesswork to the head marketer. A good head marketer NEVER takes
market research's guesswork as gospel. If market research says the
sun will rise tomorrow, a good head marketer will have a marketing
intern stay up all night to verify that. The tracking information
that market research gives the head marketer can be trusted but not
its guesswork. The tracking information will tell the head marketer
how successful (or not) his marketing plan was. The head marketer's
job is then to evolve his marketing plan based on this information.
This is where market research's guesswork comes into play. Market
research guesses the "why" behind successes and failures. The job of
the head marketer is to then test those guesses with the next
evolution of his marketing plan. If market research thinks that a
green background instead of a yellow background will improve the
effectiveness of the company's direct-mail postcard ads, the head
marketer will send off half of the next batch of direct-mail brochures
with a green background and the other half with a yellow. Market
research then tracks the success rate of the two and tells the head
marketer of the results, makes further guesses on what shades of the
winning color might get better results, and the head marketer then
tests that. If market research's guesses are always off the mark, the
head marketer will soon be appointing a new head of market research.

THE NEVER-ENDING EVER-IMPROVING LOOP With Market Research, a never-
ending loop comes into existence. If the company has a good head
marketer, the loop will be an ever-improving cycle that will be always
increasing the success of the company.

Now the above just covers the basic five components of marketing.
There are other components. There is location and in-store staff
image for retail stores, restaurants, stripclubs, and other places of
business where the buying public comes to. There is government
relations (a sub-set of PR) if the company sells to and/or has to
heavily deal with government. And there are still others. But the
above five is the core of any marketing plan.
Post by Count_Rugen
2.) I've just recently started college part-time (just one or two
classes a semester) in Marketing.
Sorry, but I think marketing courses at any college is a waste of time
for a wannabe marketer. After you leave college and start doing
marketing in the real world, you will look back at and view your
marketing professors as incompetent boobs. Marketing is a high-paying
job field IF you have talent. Think about that sentence. Really
think about that sentence. Then ask yourself if your marketing
professors are such great marketers, WHY are they professors and not
marketing executives. The old phrase "If you cannot do, you teach."
strongly applies to marketing professors. And those marketing
professors who tell you of their supposed strong marketing
credentials, on-the-side marketing consulting work, or summer
marketing jobs are also suspect. Why did they really leave the real
world of business or treat it as a hobby? In my dealings with such
individuals, the reality almost always turns out to be that they
became burnt out, stressed out, and just wimped out. The real world
of business is insanely competitive and cut-throat whereas the
academic world is a tenure-protected fantasyland disconnected from
reality. If you cannot hack it in the real world, academia is where
you want to go.

Want to book learn about marketing? Fine. Read David Ogilvy's
"Ogilvy on Advertising", Philip Kotler's "High Visibility" (1990
edition on celebrity marketing), Micheal Gerber's "The E-Myth", and
Denis Waitley's "The Double Win".

Now if you want to go to college to learn something useful for
marketing, take psychology courses. If you can understand how people
think, you can then effectively market to them. You will learn that
everyone isn't the same. You will learn about extroverts and
introverts and then, if you have your thinking cap on, you will
understand how to approach both. There is psychology of color,
sexuality, relationships, eye movement, and a whole list of things you
will find valuable for advertising. There is social psychology that
will teach you about group dynamics, herd mentality, trend-setters,
late adopters, and another whole list of things you will find valuable
not only for advertising but public relations. By the way, I would
recommend you take social psychology twice. Once taught by a
psychology professor and once taught by sociology professor. Trust
me. They will have radically different takes on this same topic. Oh,
and you'll learn the same information in your psychological
measurement course as you would in a market research course.

But don't go to college. All the psychology knowledge I listed above
can be learned from books for sale at your local bookstore. Buy them
and then highlight them as you read them. Highlight what you didn't
know and find valuable. You can then later re-read your highlights to
keep the information fresh in your head. As for what you should do
instead of going to college, I offer a suggestion below.
Post by Count_Rugen
3.) I already have a degree in Computer Science.
4.) I already have about 5 years development work
experience under my belt (since I got my CS degree).
I would recommend you use the above to your advantage. Sell yourself
as the marketer for a small computer consulting firm. Yup, a one-man-
marketing-department. What I would suggest is that you sell yourself
to a small computer consulting firm as one of their part-time web
development programmer and their first part-time marketer. Most small
computer consulting firms don't have a single marketer working for
them so it should be an easy sell for you. Very easy in fact since
most computer consulting firms are HORRIBLE at sales work and will be
over-joyed that someone will do it for them. Work for them as one of
their part-time programmer but always try to do as much marketing as
possible for them. If you are any good at marketing, you will then be
bringing in clients for them and that means profits. Eventually, you
will be FAR more valuable to them as their marketer than as one of
their programmers. It will be a natural shift for you to then be
their full-time marketer and as you build their company, you can build
a marketing department underneath you. And you will be a more
effective marketer for them since you know their technical jargon.

As for doing marketing for a computer consulting firm, the truth of
the matter is that the majority of high-profit-margin sales is made
through in-the-flesh networking. Join your local business
associations and attend their meetings religiously. Get business
cards printed up and pass them out like candy at these meetings. If
they have a bar, become one of its barflies. Join your local golf
courses. Note the plural in that last sentence. More business deals
are proposed and refined on the links and then sealed at the
nineteenth hole (the club's bar) than anywhere else. Treat potential
clients not like gullible marks but like good old buddies. Butter
them up. If they like the wild side and hot women, treat them to a
night at your local stripclub. If they like opera, ask if they would
like to join you and your wife for a night at the theater since you
"just happen to have two spare tickets". Then over drinks at either
or another event, do a soft sell pitch for your company. Get them to
agree to a contract right there (yes, this takes finesse) and then
come to their office the next day to put it in writing and make it
official.

Good luck!

Scott
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